The shit finally hits the fan.... : On a New Road

Oh crap. So you knew bits of this when you left Oracle right after the acquisition? We can feel with you. It is a pity to see what Oracle does with this great language. Java definitely helped the adoption of Android for many developers. I hope this somehow turns out to be a bad nightmare and just wears off after opening my eyes :(

Posted by atla on August 12, 2010 at 11:56 PM PDT #

It's all about money...

Posted by Adrian on August 13, 2010 at 12:01 AM PDT #

With Oracle, everything is always about money. It is the only metric they know.

Posted by James Gosling on August 13, 2010 at 12:09 AM PDT #

I'd just like asking you about this issue because read your last entry about LPOD. Why did you sold sun to it ?

Posted by meverdadero on August 13, 2010 at 12:10 AM PDT #

Begun the clone wars have

Posted by Sakuraba on August 13, 2010 at 12:34 AM PDT #

With recent Oracle action, Java programming language will be neglected by young and smart programmers. Google and Android does have impact to Java popularity recently. With this suit, other companies or communities with great ideas and expertise will stop using Java. Sigh...

Posted by hadrian on August 13, 2010 at 12:35 AM PDT #

To be fair, what would you do if you where Oracle ? If this does end up bad, as in no more java for google, it'd make other open source projects kick into gear . Plus, google isn't what it started out being and neither is Sun

Posted by urssur on August 13, 2010 at 12:37 AM PDT #

After recently buying a book, I am now reconsidering if I should get my SJCP.. . I liked Sun, but stuff like this gives me no reason to like Oracle. It wouldn't surprise me if Oracle ramped up the cost for certification in the future. I never imagined that this could happen, but laughably, Microsoft is now a more ethical company than Sun. I feel sorry for all you blokes who worked for Sun in the past, and for those who still do. It really is time for the community to pull together all their resources and work towards completely obsoleting Oracle's products.

Posted by Andy on August 13, 2010 at 12:44 AM PDT #

This is worth checking out as well: http://www.theregister.co.uk/2010/08/13/oracle_sues_google. Oracle ought to thank Google for keeping the Java language relevant, instead of trying to stifle very welcome innovation. (The Davlik VM, designed to allow multiple instances efficiently, is surely what the JVM should have been.) Given that Sun didn't complain, and that they waited until now, I hope it gets thrown out.

Posted by Rob Dickens on August 13, 2010 at 01:35 AM PDT #

It's nothing to be ashamed of. Not a fault of Sun, not yours. Oracle and idea of patenting software is to blame. And of course the lawyers ;)

Posted by Hubert ??picki on August 13, 2010 at 01:43 AM PDT #

Surely the shits hit the java fans those days. This is another proof of the crap of software patents. Fortunately, they are not recognized in Europe (yet). Mobiles are THE platform where new dev. will happen and make our industry go on. A new cycle has already started. As said @didierGirard , this certainly endangers java in the cloud too. Hell, it took some much years to have a cool free java server hosting, hope it will not be shut down too. Now I want to win the lottery and not bother any more about I.T Jerome BATON

Posted by Wadael on August 13, 2010 at 01:52 AM PDT #

No one can stop the evolution! Oracle like a child who got a new game and dunno what to do with it, after all Google also has lawyers :)

Posted by Mina R Waheeb on August 13, 2010 at 02:29 AM PDT #

FIGHT FIGHT FIGHT FIGHT FIGHT!!!!!!

Posted by Radin on August 13, 2010 at 02:31 AM PDT #

In other news, I'm delighted that there are plans afoot for OpenSolaris to become a true community effort. Even if it means that the pace of development is massively slowed down, it beats being beholden to this company that seemingly does not know how to innovate, only to acquire. I for one refuse to have inferior alternatives forced upon me by Oracle.

Posted by Dave on August 13, 2010 at 02:44 AM PDT #

To be fair, that patent should never have been granted, especially not as late in the comp sci game as 1992.

Posted by Maarten on August 13, 2010 at 02:45 AM PDT #

Happy now that I stood by my moral and ethical code and let my Sun Partner agreement terminate and refuse to sign up with Oracle. Not a company I want to be associated with.

Posted by Sean Clarke on August 13, 2010 at 02:49 AM PDT #

James did you get any major offers from major companies?

Posted by Anthonio on August 13, 2010 at 02:59 AM PDT #

Happy that I didn't sign up for JavaOne this year. James, hope to see you at JAOO in October! Can I have a picture taken with you? ;)

Posted by sys on August 13, 2010 at 03:27 AM PDT #

I think that Oracle is not good, but Google is also worst. I develop on Android since they released their first crappy SDK and I really hate the google policy...

Posted by Davide Perini on August 13, 2010 at 03:34 AM PDT #

If filing patent suits was never in Sun's DNA, why did they bother applying for patents in the first place?

Posted by jfruh on August 13, 2010 at 03:34 AM PDT #

@ jfruh - to use them in defense only, for example the ZFS - NetApp lawsuit.

Posted by Dave on August 13, 2010 at 03:46 AM PDT #

I'm very worried about the Free Java ecosystem now, and all the Runtimes that use the OpenJDK (and/or the GNU Classpath and Harmony) codebase. Are all of us going to be sued any time soon?

Posted by Mario Torre on August 13, 2010 at 03:50 AM PDT #

Trust me, this will not be the end of lawsuit again Google by Oracle. As long as they continue using Java, there's bound to be more on the way.

Posted by Helen Neely on August 13, 2010 at 03:53 AM PDT #

I am no backer of softwarepatents. But Google did screw with the very spirit if Java; compatibility. Google willfully created Dalvik, an incompatible Java run-time, in order to weasel out of compatibility tests and license fees. Google did this in order to be able to cherry pick the good stuff from Java (developer mind-share, existing frameworks and great tools) without having to care about compatibility or costs. Just try getting any AOP or mocking tools to run on Dalvik. Oracle might have done it for the wrong reasons, but Google should not be surprised.

Posted by Fredrik Olsson on August 13, 2010 at 04:13 AM PDT #

I'm very worried about the Free Java ecosystem now, and all the Runtimes that use the OpenJDK (and/or the GNU Classpath and Harmony) codebase. Are all of us going to be sued any time soon?

Posted by Mario Torre on August 13, 2010 at 05:14 AM PDT #

I think Oracle is slowly killing their community. They screwed up OpenSolaris, they now going to screw up all over the places other open software. But they will fail. Then regret big time.

Posted by BM on August 13, 2010 at 05:22 AM PDT #

@Helen, but Dalvik never claimed to be a JVM and Google have taken pains (probably for legal reasons) to say exactly that. Programmers might happen to program using Java language but the end result is something which is expressly not Java. I expect Google didn't use the JVM boils down to numerous factors including licensing, money, performance, inability / refusal by Sun / Oracle to provide required features plus a desire to "own" the platform or at least ensure Sun didn't have fingers all over it. At this stage I think Google probably made the right decision for themselves and Android. I love Java but I haven't seen a decent implementation in a phone yet. My owning feeling is this lawsuit is just a land grab and I would not be surprised if Google file a countersuit based on a raft of patents that Sun / Oracle have infringed. Eventually matters will be settled the way they usually are with a cross licensing agreement and some money under the table.

Posted by Adam Lock on August 13, 2010 at 05:23 AM PDT #

What Oracle does not get is that also programming languages live and die by their reputations. Executing actions like this will seriously damage the Java's future as widely used language/platform. I also had been considering getting SJCP this fall. I am now regrettably feeling quite a bit worse about that idea. Might use my time better focusing on something else, for instance C++ or Python.

Posted by mehmoomoo on August 13, 2010 at 05:50 AM PDT #

I think most people who may program in Java won't notice any consequences and thus won't change their behavior.

Posted by yman on August 13, 2010 at 06:01 AM PDT #

ESR put up a blog post (http://esr.ibiblio.org/?p=2443) suggesting that this suit was done by proxy for Apple. Do you think this is plausible?

Posted by Ronald Lovejoy on August 13, 2010 at 06:43 AM PDT #

Bye Java. Hello Html5 and Silverlight. It was a nice time.

Posted by J on August 13, 2010 at 06:51 AM PDT #

[Trackback] O James Gosling, que não tem poupado críticas à Oracle desde que saiu da Sun (em seu penúltimo post

Posted by Confluence: André Costa on August 13, 2010 at 06:53 AM PDT #

<quote>With Oracle, everything is always about money. It is the only metric they know. </quote> And with Sun it was the one metric they didn't know, and look where it got them.

Posted by Mark on August 13, 2010 at 06:55 AM PDT #

Yet more evidence that software should not be patentable.

Posted by TW Andrews on August 13, 2010 at 06:56 AM PDT #

[Trackback] yeah! this story has entered the popular today section on popurls.com

Posted by === popurls.com === popular today on August 13, 2010 at 07:20 AM PDT #

Is it time to start talking about intellectual property tax yet? CA could use the dough. :-)

Posted by Charles Durrett on August 13, 2010 at 07:24 AM PDT #

Oracle is beginning to behave like an evil looking glass, I hope this is not a portend of a future in which we all get held to ransom by an organization which refuses to cooperate with a community of users? Its times like these that I am amazed the Sun ever shone, not too worried though, because Open Source will prevail and the world will be free again. Out of the darkness a new champion will emerge. Just don't expect it to be any of the dominant players.

Posted by ubuntupunk on August 13, 2010 at 07:25 AM PDT #

I guess Oracle became jealous of Apple for displacing them as the most evil empire in IT and wants their position back :)

Posted by Daniel Serodio on August 13, 2010 at 07:26 AM PDT #

James - you should take a job at Google! Oracle just made a lot of Java developers their enemy. Sad.

Posted by Peter Frandsen on August 13, 2010 at 07:41 AM PDT #

I'm glad to see the start of slow death of java.

Posted by Knodi on August 13, 2010 at 07:47 AM PDT #

This is just bluster and protecting trademarks etc. There is no way that this will fly. In any case, Google problem have a truck load of patents that they can swap.

Posted by John on August 13, 2010 at 07:54 AM PDT #

I think it is time to abolish software patents

Posted by Gerd on August 13, 2010 at 08:01 AM PDT #

Should inspire some good Duke scenes.

Posted by Barry Kreiser on August 13, 2010 at 09:07 AM PDT #

@James grow some balls please.

Posted by James Gosling on August 13, 2010 at 09:14 AM PDT #

Oracle is right. Google is wrong. Google SCREWED with Java big time. Google took Java, compiled Java code into Java bytecode, then translated that into Dalvik bytecode to run on the Dalvik virtual machine. Then Google avoided calling its language Java. Thus Google avoided having to license Java IP from Sun. Google created a work-around for Java Mobile Edition (which is NOT GPL'd). Google screwed Java and Sun. And now Google is going to pay Oracle for its sins. Sure, Google has lawyers. But Oracle has lawyers too and Oracle is better at suing others than Google has been. Oracle is the second largest software company in the world - second only to Microsoft. It makes lots of money. And it plays to big business. Believe it when it sues Google.

Posted by James Katt on August 13, 2010 at 09:21 AM PDT #

I guess everyone is right, Sun never would have done this. Funny, though, Sun basically went out of business. I guess Darwin wins when your genetic code kills you? Sun's policies, real winners across the board.

Posted by ahamilton on August 13, 2010 at 09:32 AM PDT #

using cheap tricks to avoid paying license worked well with Sun, that went belly up for that reason. Oracle lawsuit merely brings normality to an unfair situation relative to honest Java licensees.

Posted by db admin on August 13, 2010 at 11:40 AM PDT #

Now Nokia laughs at the criticism its not using Android..Go MeeGo

Posted by Boffa on August 13, 2010 at 03:55 PM PDT #

I see it purely as a means to an end (they are probably already in talks). JavaFX and other new and old Oracle tech on Android (the fastest growing OS on the planet, period). Watch out for the happy happy joy joy announcements.

Posted by tahubbard on August 13, 2010 at 04:00 PM PDT #

Since the first days of last year, I was thinking: What will be the "gain" for the en user of JAVA RTE and the community with such «fussion»? Now we are having the answers!

Posted by Galo E. Villarán M. on August 13, 2010 at 04:00 PM PDT #

So Larry is pissed off about Mark Hurd being forced out. He calls his mate, Steve Jobs : "I'm in the mood of kicking somebody's ass". Steve Jobs: "You know, we have this issue of Android growing faster and iPhone". :-)

Posted by alphageek on August 13, 2010 at 04:41 PM PDT #

Reminds me of the SCO vs. Linux lawsuit. Lots of attention, 7 or so years of debating, no outcome and certainly no impact for the end-users (after all, nobody seriously wants to lose those that bring the money).

Posted by Bachi on August 13, 2010 at 04:52 PM PDT #

Is this just an attack on Java usage or is this an attack on JVM usage? The difference to me, as a scala user, is immense. It looks like they are going after the VM (Dalvik). Neither is acceptable but, since everyone else is trying to assess their culpability here, this could help me to decide if I should be sticking with the JVM (I likey HotSpot and the threading model) or shift to something else.

Posted by dave on August 13, 2010 at 05:00 PM PDT #

This lawsuit will only bring oracle down in the long run ! Thank heavens no one can claim c++ !!

Posted by Samson Koshy on August 13, 2010 at 05:01 PM PDT #

This is a systemic problem of the USPTO which will end up killing innovation and hurting the consumer and free markets, see Kedrosky and Feld regarding the Supreme Court's recent lost opportunity (Bilski v. Kappos): http://tinyurl.com/336c3t2

Posted by B on August 13, 2010 at 05:10 PM PDT #

I guess I don't understand most of the posts here. Everything being done by Oracle is legal and within their right. A reasonable analogy is that you build your home in a flood plain. When the river crests and you have shit in your basement, you can only blame you. Java was a Sun thing from the beginning and nothing is ever free. When you look at your Microsofts, Apples, Nokias, etc, give them credit for building their houses out of brick on the top of a mountain.

Posted by Anonymous Coward on August 13, 2010 at 05:17 PM PDT #

Java has done many damages to the programming as a whole and the programming comunity. To programming, since all the open source collectivity efforts thrown behind a language that is no longer free could have been used to create a better C++ or a new patent-free language altogether To the programming community because helped create a zillion of under paid javoids that pretend to know programming. Disdain and disgust, I saw this coming and I'm glad of it.

Posted by Roberto on August 13, 2010 at 05:18 PM PDT #

I wonder if this has anything to do with Mark Hurd's friendship with Larry? Hurd before he was fired from HP just bought Palm WebOS. Palm WebOS is Linux with a custom user interface just like Androd is. The legal action would have started before Hurd's departure from HP and can only help WebOS.

Posted by sys2 on August 13, 2010 at 05:48 PM PDT #

I never liked the Java version of App Engine. The Python version scales better and is less complicated. That said Java has paid the majority of the bills in my career.

Posted by Nick Bauman on August 13, 2010 at 06:36 PM PDT #

James, it's sad to see you side with Oracle on this one. You state: "Oracle is right. Google is wrong." - you sound like George Bush and the axis of evil!No where have you given any hat tip to the millions of developers who write code in Java to help people. You were great for striving to get people off of the Microsoft choke hold with 'write once run anywhere' and not having to worry about garbage collection, etc. But Google is doing the world a tremendous favor with Android that Sun didn't have the ability to do. Providing a viable alternative to the Apple mobile computing jailhouse that is iOS. The patents cited are a joke, and don't represent much in the way of inventiveness. "Method And Apparatus For Preprocessing And Packaging Class Files" - 5,966,702 "Controlling Access To A Resource" - 6,192,476. Is this kind of like a parent putting a cookie jar on the top shelf... I mean common! (post cont'd below)

Posted by satori singularity on August 13, 2010 at 07:07 PM PDT #

(cont'd) These are not that inventive, and don't warrant side swiping a company that is trying to bring freedom to mobile computing. The potential benefits to having a smart phone ecosystem that developers can actually develop the next wave of software that helps the whole world. The main thing Google is doing is leveraging the 6.5 million Java developers, that invested their own time to participate in the Java ecosystem. James, I have spent my entire career working in Java, but I'm seriously wanting to bail ship for the FOSS promise. You saw the sparkle in the Lawyers eyes when they grilled you over the patent issues with Sun and Google. Was that guy dreaming of a better world for all, or wondering if his legal fees would pay for a bigger hummer than his neighbor has. I salute Larry for making a 95% donation of his damn near trillion dollar fortune...but if he really wants to help the world, fire his legal team and get down to the business of competing on merit.

Posted by satori singularity on August 13, 2010 at 07:09 PM PDT #

@satori singularity, I think the post you're referring to is posted by another James.

Posted by satrac on August 13, 2010 at 07:31 PM PDT #

Considering Sun's goals of protecting JAVA and their win over Microsoft, what was Google thinking? They were the exception because their do no evil mantra? Very irresponsible decision on Google's part. Now Oracle will charge a license fee on every Android phone. It's Google's own immaturity and maybe arrogance that caused this.

Posted by Singer on August 13, 2010 at 09:28 PM PDT #

Hmm - unfortunate though this is for Java, this could eventually be a big boost for Go.

Posted by Joe Beets on August 13, 2010 at 10:07 PM PDT #

What does this mean? Will all open source projects be shut down? E.g. eclipse, hibernate, etc.?

Posted by Gautam on August 13, 2010 at 10:47 PM PDT #

This is pretty bad. I feel like I'd be just as well off going with C# at this point.

Posted by Julian on August 13, 2010 at 10:56 PM PDT #

Sigh. If Google is using IP Oracle bought from Sun, then Google should pay to use it or stop using it. The courts will decide. (Joe Beets does deserve some sort of award for the silliest comment. Yup, Joe, it's the end of the world.)

Posted by Bob Foster on August 14, 2010 at 12:31 AM PDT #

When Dalvik was announced I remember laughing out loud at the barefaced cheek of what Google did. Credit where it's due; nobody can deny that Android beats the hell out of any J2ME/Blackberry/etc phone ever produced or even vaguely promised (JavaFX anyone?) The open availability of such a quality embedded OS is a huge benefit to... well, everyone except Sun. Still, screw you, Larry Ellison. You have enough money to not be coming round here causing trouble.

Posted by Rich Aplin on August 14, 2010 at 01:40 AM PDT #

i belive this case only happen for america's company, which america implement software patent. i am not software patent fans, and our country is not support this.

Posted by Frans Thamura on August 14, 2010 at 02:21 AM PDT #

Considering how google responded to Sun's people which were concerned about Dalvik at the time (and the fact that they probably discovered it by he medias like everyone else), I think we can safely say that google kind of stole what they wanted from Java without even thanking Sun. They are in this situation because of their own arrogance. They ought to be in this mess now. If they had thought about working with Sun at the time rather than acting like they did, they would be safe now.

Posted by Hervé Girod on August 14, 2010 at 02:23 AM PDT #

If you look at the list of patents it seems natural for Oracle to sue Microsoft over .NET technologies. All Sun's patents use Java just as illustration, and the claims apply to .NET as well.

Posted by Yaroslav on August 14, 2010 at 02:40 AM PDT #

As sad as it is, I think it just proves how Software patents will always be used to sue, sooner or later. Stuff like "Genetic Code" isn't worth anything. Sad to see how the Sun goes down, but when Oracle bought Sun it was clear that this would happen. Sad for all the good people who worked hard on some really great technology.

Posted by Michael Stum on August 14, 2010 at 02:49 AM PDT #

@Yaroslav -- Sun and Microsoft settled their lawsuit; it is possible that this included cross-licensing of patents such as these and others owned by MS that Sun could have been infringing on.

Posted by hoopskier on August 14, 2010 at 02:55 AM PDT #

Acutally, @Yaroslav, amend my response... looks like Sun used alleged patent infringements in .NET to ward off MS alleging OpenOffice infringments: http://jonathanischwartz.wordpress.com/2010/03/09/good-artists-copy-great-artists-steal/

Posted by hoopskier on August 14, 2010 at 03:03 AM PDT #

well, the fact is .. all these just made developers hate Oracle more.. life would be better for all, if google just acquired sun from the start. in fact, i hope Oracle start thinking the benefit of more people and existing developers will collaborate with Googlers. They really push Java adoption alot. Suing will just benefit the "lawyers" either win or lose, and spoilt Oracle reputation in long run.. man... I love Java, cant imagine would migrate to other language just because of this.. If more companies are like Google, Spring (Vmware).. Java will continue to innovate and improve with time.. for now and forever..... think from bigger picture

Posted by cometta on August 14, 2010 at 03:15 AM PDT #

Oracle turns out to be the biggest nemesis of OpenSource, acquiring popular open source companies just to destroy them. They should get ouragious response from anyone that believes in open source. Hopefully this patent shit never hits Europe.

Posted by Joe on August 14, 2010 at 04:47 AM PDT #

This is a very expected move from Oracle, I wonder how far they will get. I am reconsidering continuing with Java, as I am thinking that it is no more secure, maybe something like Python and other "free" programming languages are much more safe :)

Posted by Amanj on August 14, 2010 at 05:14 AM PDT #

I think it's time that good guys comes together and create new JAVA. James, you ought to lead this otherwise, whole community die.

Posted by Bhupendra Shah on August 14, 2010 at 05:20 AM PDT #

Its so sad that Oracle is attacking Google over something that benefits the community in general. Google managed to create what Sun could not create. A full platform that sat on top of a well-designed stack that was fit for purpose, memory efficient, and extensible across multiple devices. Sun and Oracle were not competitors. This was not in competition with J2ME as J2ME development had essentially stopped. Android carried the Java torch forward and donated the code to the community in the name of Openness which benefits everyone equally (not especially Google). Software patents need to be sorted out. Sometimes there is only one way to invent the wheel and argueably obvious given a short amount of time. A company swooping in and buying a few bits of paper there were intended for defense then blackmailing other companies with it, not cool. Blackmail is a crime but software patent blackmail, that's food for the lawyers.

Posted by Chris A on August 14, 2010 at 05:39 AM PDT #

@hoopskier: the patents which Oracle used against Google were filed *after* Microsoft/Sun in 2001 settlement, i.e. .NET is still vulnerable (I'll have to research the OpenOffice case). This is very important, patents are not Java specific, Java is used just as an illustration. Moreover, iPhone's iOS uses several core ideas which are covered by these parents (and so does pretty much every other modern OS including MeeGo). In the end I'd expect Google lawyers will find prior art and thus dismiss all 6 patents.

Posted by Yaroslav on August 14, 2010 at 06:01 AM PDT #

Suddenly the Parrot VM is looking quite attractive. Maybe Perl 6, too... Java, on the other hand, is starting to look like C#, Objective C, and all the other languages behind paywalls -- mad, bad, and dangerous to know.

Posted by András Salamon on August 14, 2010 at 07:47 AM PDT #

I don't know if you read the news that OpenSolaris is officially dead. -_- JavaME is dead, JavaFX who know, I'm going mad, I can't belive that my loved "white company (Sun)" has been kicked off in this way...

Posted by Davide Perini on August 14, 2010 at 08:30 AM PDT #

Wow! I cannot say I am surprised. Whatever happens between Oracle and Google, I do hope some good will come out of it. Google has done a lot for Java, Oracle has to respect that. I also respect that Oracle is the new steward of Java. My solutions are: Cross licensing agreement, Oracle can join the Open Handset Alliance, Google can join the Java Community Process, fix the infringment and encumberences on the Dalvik VM, if proven or agreed. Everyone play nice and fair. If this is the desired or anticipated outcome, then I think Java is seriously crippled and weakened as future prospect. The next 12 months are going to stellar.

Posted by Peter Pilgrim on August 14, 2010 at 08:52 AM PDT #

This is a terribly sad news and so are similar idiocy software patents had brought - that have been great topics during lunch and dinner these days. Know what, Java API Doc was always ugly looking (the blue/purple color scheme) to me, but I miss it these days. Whatever we see now (Oracle's) is worse. I like my Sun's Java certifications but I don't see a good reason to pursue my last one to associate myself with detestable Oracle.

Posted by Yuen-Chi Lian on August 14, 2010 at 09:16 AM PDT #

Everyone should think about playing *nice* and *fair*. If this is **NOT** the desired or anticipated outcome, then I think Java is seriously crippled and weakened as future prospect. The next 12 months are going to stellar. Somehow I think Android will keep on going, because too much moment and investment in it. That Android tablet computer is arriving soon at a consumer store near you in a couple of months or so. Whether there is a decline in Java or sudden interest again, the crown jewel are the Virtual Machine. I think that is what Oracle are disputing in truth. The Sun/Oracle JVM is definitely proven and hotspot rules on desktop computers! Dalvik is getting there with Froyo Android 2.2 or mobile and embedded devices and so there is now a dispute on the platform. The language at the end of the day does not quite matter, as much as the performance, function and deployability of the Virtual Machine.

Posted by Peter Pilgrim on August 14, 2010 at 09:35 AM PDT #

-Google created a work-around for Java Mobile Edition- And what's the problem ? Everybody hates J2ME. Google purpose a new modern way to develop mobile application to replace the old buggy J2ME that nobody wants. RIM does the same thing with the Blackberry Java SDK. (but it's compatible with J2ME)

Posted by Mathieu Poussin on August 14, 2010 at 09:55 AM PDT #

If the JVM is the crown jewel, then why not consider other VMs that are not encumbered the way Oracle's VM seems to be? In addition, the JVM fails to incorporate much of the progress in systems over the last 20 years: see Allison Randal's talk at the 2008 JVM Language Summit for some compelling performance claims.

Posted by András Salamon on August 14, 2010 at 10:25 AM PDT #

There is no nice and fair in Oracle president mouth. this company is so f** closed in terms of innovation. For Oracle, innovation is acquired. It is not built in or DNA. Take a look at what this company did with the tremedous potential of BEA, and see what is means 2.5 years after, that is just disconcerting. Weblogic products are dead.... take a $8.5b acquisition and get the milk of the fat cow for $750M/year that makes the worst ROI of the IT history (except HP tries in software)... so come back to our Java suit, Oracle pay for a major asset and now NEEDS to make money with it, so they can PRETEND Sun is profitable. While talking patents if you want make it big, start by suing the one who can pay... so good to start with Infinite money company a.k.a Google !! don't spend your time with second hands..... This all thing s**s.

Posted by Stephan on August 14, 2010 at 10:29 AM PDT #

giving openoffice, virtualbox, mysql, java, solaris, and so forth to a company like oracle was the worst thing happening to the internet and the IT industry since the raise of the apple-hype-closed distribution-ways religion.

Posted by omg on August 14, 2010 at 10:33 AM PDT #

It is time for the world to look ahead of JAVA. James - do u wanna lead the way :)

Posted by Vic on August 14, 2010 at 12:29 PM PDT #

If Sun had done a good job with Java, Java wouldn't have to end up with a mess like this. I think that Sun should be one to be blamed. Sun had all the opportunities and times to get Java right on the web, desktop and phones but Sun failed to deliver. The CEO could simply walk away with a nice package and blame on bad economics. It's our developers being impacted the most. After 10 years of being hard core Java fan, it's time to move on to some thing else. Java has no future.

Posted by Jack Trusell on August 14, 2010 at 01:36 PM PDT #

Its important that we send a clear message to Oracle and any like minded company to not turn into patent trolls (there are enough of them already). I think the strongest possible message would be if plenty of big (and even more small) OSS projects strip out support for any Oracle products in their next release. http://pooteeweet.org/blog/1806

Posted by Lukas on August 14, 2010 at 01:45 PM PDT #

Good comments. A really upsetting thing to do from Oralcaeda. Jabbing a dagger into open source. On the other hand what license is there on the Dalvik? Was the Google development really a response to a failing Sun? At the universities there was a strong shy away from Java after The Acquisition (movie title, patented by Oracle). Seriously, it is always useful and interesting to learn new languages. Perhaps it should be made much easier and useful than it is to let small communities develop their own language.

Posted by sammoes on August 14, 2010 at 03:15 PM PDT #

To Mr. James Gosling, Why don't you join your hands with Google and support these Millions of Java Developers and Java Platform. I have been a Java developer since 2000, Java has changed me and gave me light in my life. Like me many people benefited by your thinking. I had respect for oracle, not now. I feel that JAVA platform is in Monkey's Hand. We will wait for some Good news to hear from you. Thanks, JAVA MAN

Posted by JAVA MAN on August 14, 2010 at 07:43 PM PDT #

This Oracle thing was expected; we all felt less than confortable when Oracle became the custodian of Oracle but I did not imagine it would be this bad. Oracle's gated community, its Redwood Chores country club, sees the vast adoption of Java by the open source community, and by Google, as a competitor to proprietary software. Why Google did not see this coming and bought Sun, even if just for Java, and sell the hardware to Fujitsu, HP or IBM; it is cheaper than law suits. What next for Java developers; I went and browsed the Go site and after few minutes I came disappointed; Go did not jump at me as a language that will replace Java; is it C#, not for me, is it Clojure or Sacala, wait these are Java also; is it Haskell or Erlang; this Oracle thing is upsetting and confusing; I hope jag et al can provide some insight as to the future for 20-years of Java.

Posted by J.F. Zarama on August 14, 2010 at 11:20 PM PDT #

If I write a LISP-AIX-binary to C++ Windows-Converter, I break the rules? Google converts Java Bytecode to Dalvik bytecode. It's so much work to do that, that Sun "thought": nobody will ever do that, so we can reap the benefits. It's "Posix Unix" all over again! "Nobody will create a cheap unix for X86, we can ask for horrendous prices ad infinitum!" "What, Linux destroyed our market(share)? That's not ok! There must be rules to protect our slow, outdated business? Ah, yes! Patents!" If Google refuses to buy in and goes the whole nine yards, it will invalidate all the patents. And then counter sue Oracle for their numerous clustering/bigtable patents and require Oracle to stop selling databases :)

Posted by Thomas on August 14, 2010 at 11:44 PM PDT #

What a load of rubbish is being written here with folks talking about the death of Java. Just because Oracle is going after Google, a company who shafted Sun in the first place and is now reaping rewards. Why would you think people would stop using Java, do you think people will throw away their investments of time, effort and money? The only folks that might do that are some of the people ranting on here. Time to grow up and move on.

Posted by OracleStaffer on August 15, 2010 at 12:45 AM PDT #

@OracleStaffer Why would you think people would stop using Java? They said it that they will stop using Java - do not you see? If you see - do not ask.

Posted by maniek on August 15, 2010 at 01:03 AM PDT #

If I use garbage collection in C++, is that infingement?

Posted by admin on August 15, 2010 at 01:52 AM PDT #

you oracle staffer - go to hell

Posted by maniek on August 15, 2010 at 02:15 AM PDT #

Java in Sun era is not Java in Oracle era. Oracle is definitely not community minded. Redwood shores HQ is full of project managers spending budgets coming from database business - extracting it from milk accounts that is how oracle treats its customer base - to try to enrich product porfolio. And because there are not so many things a company can do, they fail (in terms of revenue, but you don't see it because ORCL does not break down its revenues per products lines). So it is time for us - technologists - to take the power back and stack up our applications and products on open technologies and languages. Be sure our CxOs will appreciate !

Posted by Stephan on August 15, 2010 at 02:38 AM PDT #

@maniek - you oracle staffer - go to hell very good maniek - very impressive, you did really well there, that told me didn't it?

Posted by OracleStaffer on August 15, 2010 at 05:06 AM PDT #

the jdk can not download now

Posted by s3051024 on August 15, 2010 at 06:26 AM PDT #

@OracleStaffer, because giving Java to Oracle is the worst thing that could happen ? Because nobody like Oracle ? Because Oracle only want money ? Because Oracle don't like Open Source ? Because almost all enterprise products bought by Oracle are dead (Weblogic..) ? Oracle killed Java as they killed OpenSolaris. Bye bye Oracle, hello Microsoft

Posted by Mathieu Poussin on August 15, 2010 at 07:35 AM PDT #

At Sun, I occasionally had to do damage control with the developer community because of well-intentioned ineptitude, and I was comfortable with doing that because it really was just that. I am glad I left Oracle before having to live through through this. Whether the suit has merit or not (I'd expect the desired outcome is a per-phone royalty on Android), it sticks a fork in the eye of anyone depending on open source implementations of Java, as they now must assume they are legally exposed. -Tim

Posted by Tim Boudreau on August 15, 2010 at 07:43 AM PDT #

Tim Boudreau: I have to wonder if the damage will be worse, for as Brian Proffitt noted, 'SCOracle' (as he put it) has 'weaponized' Java which seriously changes the rules of the game. We know where their use of Java as a weapon is starting but we have no idea where it'll end. For that matter, it'll probably be a long time before we even have an idea of the scope of their likely future actions. For example, if Google settles quickly, who's next? If Google fights tooth and nail, that along could drag out for years (well, unless and until Oracle goes nuclear by seeking a fast track import ban from the US International Trade Commission).

Posted by Lina Inverse on August 15, 2010 at 08:36 AM PDT #

@Mathieu Poussin: Kids hates JavaME. JavaME was the first incarnation of a wonderful powerful incredibly cool technology for mobile phones. My software runs on more than 2000 different phone model with a single JAR file. Can you tell the same for any other mobile software running on a different technology? I must admit that JavaME should be refreshed (I'm so sad that no one have intantion to do that), but be sure that JavaME is enough for the 95% of the apps published on the Android Market. PS: I'm desperatly seeking any news on JavaME tech, I can't find news anywhere... Oracle told us some times ago that it has the intention to merge the JavaSE API with the JavaME API but is this something for this century? I can't belive that the most widely adopted technology for mobile phones will be kicked off in this way.

Posted by Davide Perini on August 15, 2010 at 09:57 AM PDT #

Oracle should know what happens if it's damaging FOSS communities. Even if its action is legal, it may not mean it's ethical. A new word came up to my mind: Oraclettel, meaning "I am mad" in Japanese, as a proper name for the company. Another one might be Oracless as a slogan to boycott their products against their acts on damaging FOSS communities and culture.

Posted by anone on August 15, 2010 at 10:00 AM PDT #

One solution.. fork Java from Oracle implementation. Turn, any code portion with possible have legal problem, write a new and free code. Even the name "Java" should be changed, because it was owned by Oracle/Sun.

Posted by teknokrasi on August 15, 2010 at 10:19 AM PDT #

sorry if i'm saying obvious, rude or stupid things. i think that there might be a solution for this problem by "overriding" the rewrite step in RE38104. 0. for each code block create a copy of the same size covered with the following opcodes: i: [goto orig+i] that means that if the PC is in the "copy" it will immidiately jump back to the the "orig". 1. the code interpreter function would use the "copy" area to store interpreted code and avoid rewriting the original bytecode (a copy of the original memory + offset) 2. the "rewrite" branch will execute the new location only if it was "rewritten". though ugly and double the memory this is not breaking the patent. is it a real workaround?

Posted by nati on August 15, 2010 at 01:47 PM PDT #

@OracleStaffer I do not want to swear on someones blog

Posted by Maniek on August 15, 2010 at 02:00 PM PDT #

I took a look at all of the patents referenced in the lawsuit. They all have at least one of these problems: 1) They were filed years after prior-art was published in the literature, or products were being sold using the technology. 2) They do not pass the newer standards for novelty, non-obviousness, etc. Take a look at RE38,104, the FORTH system is one such example of prior-art (which has all or most of the elements described in the patent.) In addition, Sun signed a cross agreement with Google that they would not sue each other for patent infringement on a Linux platform-- and this agreement is still binding even though Oracle bought Sun. Oracle is in breach of contract. This will end just like the SCO vs. Linux lawsuit, and will have similar long term consequences for Oracle. Nothing will come of it except F.U.D., and people will stop buying Oracle products. This is really a bone-headed play by Larry Ellison-- I thought he was smarter than that.

Posted by NYDB on August 15, 2010 at 03:51 PM PDT #

By suing Google, Oracle has tainted Java worse than British Petroleum poisoned the Gulf Coast.

Posted by Alexander Tavrovsky on August 15, 2010 at 03:52 PM PDT #

More power to Python.

Posted by Dmitry c. on August 15, 2010 at 10:15 PM PDT #

Oracle is DEAD, well, not too much to miss, SQL is crap and dead any way. BigTable everyone!

Posted by Anton on August 16, 2010 at 01:46 AM PDT #

@Yaroslav: you're right. .NET infringes all these patents as well. Moreover, Linux and thus MeeGo ALSO infringe these ridiculous patents (there is so much prior art that all these patents need to be dismissed).

Posted by Mike on August 16, 2010 at 01:52 AM PDT #

just ask Oracle to fire all their lawyers and hire 'better programmers' like google if they are serious about innovation. ask them make better web, no war.

Posted by cometta on August 16, 2010 at 02:26 AM PDT #

What everyone here is forgetting is that Oracle is the financial success it is because it throws around its weight. This is a walk in the park for a company created by Larry Ellison. Anyone remember the law suit Mr. Ellison won over his japanese mansion?? On another point Oracle's customers are traditionally conservative old school businesses. They have money to spend and they couldn't care less about "the community". Just take a look at Oracle's ADF framework, its a piece of rubbish compared to what is available in the community but customers are still skilling up in it and learning it because it is apart of the Oracle ecosystem. If you looked at this objectively Oracle is fully within its right to protect its patents. Google should have applied for a licence in the first place. Maybe Sun would be in a different position if it had enforced its patents?

Posted by Ducati Dude on August 16, 2010 at 09:53 AM PDT #

Oracle did something really stupid, piss off developers and hasten the move toward open source. Oracle is sweating IBM big time and they should. Google has nothing to worry about as they did a clean build of Java. Sounds like greed begets greed with lawyers wasting everyone's time while pocketing Larry's money. Hubris anyone?

Posted by Robert Moran on August 16, 2010 at 10:58 AM PDT #

What's the future of OpenJDK now?

Posted by 93.104.87.230 on August 16, 2010 at 12:40 PM PDT #

Why not a new "lawyer free" language to replace Java using the community model of Apache? Rock solid products that can be trusted to be lawyer proof.

Posted by Engineer on August 16, 2010 at 01:32 PM PDT #

I find it interesting that OracleStaffer gets all defensive about programmers when it is mostly programmers that are in this forum (you really need to broaden your horizons beyond your cubicle). It occurs to me that Oracle will only succeed in increasing the consumers cost of the systems running Java. While coders have strong opinions (as we have seen above) the ultimate decision is made with the dollar. Thus if Oracle's legal maneuvering increases the overall cost of Java implementations too much, the market will simply stop voting for it with their $$. Business, not programming, drives the market and the content of our products.

Posted by JCL on August 16, 2010 at 01:47 PM PDT #

"My software runs on more than 2000 different phone model with a single JAR file" @DavidePerini Is it the Hello World Program you are talking about? "Do you think that if just one software "FPC BENCH" runs properly on most handsets all other software developersa are lying?

Posted by Jalaj Jha on August 17, 2010 at 03:04 AM PDT #

Why the board sold Sun to Oracle ? Why Sun bought MySQL for 1bn ? Why Oracle, not SUN, sue Google ? JS cannot save this sinking ship, so made Sun as attractive as possible to Oracle. He got package and goodbye. He should already know the consequence we saw today. But why ? It's all about Jonathan's personal interest. He should be responsible for all this shit.

Posted by wilson on August 17, 2010 at 10:02 AM PDT #

Well, I am not happy about Oracle's move either, buuuut... didn't Sun sue Microsoft to prevent the fragmentation of Java with you being one of the prime witnesses? As a matter of fact, Google's "Java" is not really Java which any Android developer will notice rather quickly. As such, Google fragmented Java. Of course, it would be rather naive to believe that protecting Java is Oracle's reason to sue, but one can always pretend.

Posted by Daniel on August 17, 2010 at 11:26 AM PDT #

Google should have resolved this problem before. They had the money. They just ignored the problem. Google and Oracle are the same... every big company wants money... That's the point! They can't scream now... They knew what was coming...

Posted by Eduardo on August 17, 2010 at 01:10 PM PDT #

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